Ep 14 Knowledge is Power: the Nurse’s Role in Public Health Education with Michael Rogers

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[00:00:30] You can find all the links that you need at healthpodcastnetwork.com slash nurse Keith. That's healthpodcastnetwork.com slash nurse Keith. Welcome to the Nurse Rosas Insights Podcast. Thank you for joining me today, Nurse Michael. Hello, I'm happy to be here.

[00:01:00] Do you not usually go by Nurse Michael? I haven't been called Nurse Michael in quite some time, but I'm willing to workshop it here. We'll go with it. Awesome. Well, I definitely want to clarify you're not a doctor. Thank you for that. I feel like I get that a lot walking into patients' rooms. Yeah, which doctor are you? Zero. Not a doctor.

[00:01:29] However, I invited Nurse Michael Rogers to join us today because he is a very insightful nurse leader. I met him through the American Association of Neuroscience Nurses and you're a board member, right? I am. Or which board member? I am. There's like three. Yeah, so I'm actually finishing my first year on the board of the American Association of Neuroscience Nurses as a director at large. And I've learned a ton.

[00:01:57] I've been with the organization for quite a while, but every time you level up your commitment, you learn something new. So I'm very fortunate to be serving. Excellent. Yes. And thank you for your service. And that is a volunteer position, right? So now you did not start your career as a nurse, right?

[00:02:18] So tell us a little bit about how you came to be a nurse and what your frame of reference was as a man and how you found that career path. Yeah, I appreciate that. My mom's a nurse. She retired actually when I was graduating from nursing school and she came to my pinning ceremony. So she was a part of that. But I'd been around nursing.

[00:02:45] She'd worked in various different areas and I kind of had a little bit of a sampling from hearing her stories and connecting with her and figuring out how long her days were. And when I first graduated school, I hadn't really thought of nursing as a career. It was something where whether it was stereotypes or my own ideas of what I wanted my life to be, I didn't think that it was like a viable option for me.

[00:03:13] At this time, I lived in Texas and being in that environment was something that really didn't lend itself to a traditionally female dominated industry like nursing. So while I knew about it as a career, I didn't really relate to it as a career. And I came to nursing in a bit of a roundabout way.

[00:03:36] I thought I wanted to go into law and be an attorney, but I didn't want to go to law school right away after I finished my degree in undergrad. And so I went to work for a law firm in Dallas, Texas, and this law firm, the division that I was hired into was litigation and specifically pharmaceuticals and product liability litigation. And I worked on several different dockets.

[00:04:02] We represented Merck for Vioxx during the claims that it was giving people myocardial infarctions, AstraZeneca, lots of large pharmaceutical companies, Medtronic for their defibrillators with the Fidelis leads. And my particular role as a legal assistant while I was studying for the LSAT was to do a lot of chart review on patients who were coming forward with complaints.

[00:04:31] And in doing that chart review, I found that there was a huge gap in patient education. It was so much information about what doctors were doing for the patient, but not really any evidence that there was a conversation happening, that there was an investment in the person's health. And so I was in a big moral dilemma about it.

[00:04:55] And I asked my mom, I asked, you know, some of the doctors, expert witnesses that I actually worked with on the cases, like who usually is, is taking ownership of this patient education? Who's ensuring that folks know what they need to do to be healthy? You know, not just absence of the disease, but be healthy. And the resounding answer that I got from everyone was it's usually nurses who do that.

[00:05:19] There's a bit of doctors with their hands in the process, but it's the ownership is primarily on nursing. And so I was like, all right, well, that sounds like something that I could do that I could, you know, kind of respect myself for. Because again, I didn't feel great about a lot of the cases that we were handling at the firm. But I started looking up second career nursing programs because I already had a bachelor's degree and I didn't want to be out of the workforce for too long.

[00:05:48] And I actually got to work part-time at the firm while I was in nursing school and got through a program in 15 months and got my bachelor's in nursing. And it was one of the best decisions I ever made. I tell people that to this day, that that pivot from law to nursing was something that I felt so at ease and at home doing, you know, while relating to patients is something that is a big learning curve.

[00:06:15] It's something that was so rewarding and so enriching and challenging in every single way that I really felt the work that we were doing was incredibly meaningful. So I'm thankful I made the pivot. And I always knew how smart my mom or I knew that she was an intelligent woman, but I didn't realize exactly how smart she was until I became a nurse as well.

[00:06:39] And recognizing all the things that she was responsible for doing, all the different careers that she had done within nursing, whether it was working in the pediatric ICU in the early parts of career or transitioning to hospice nursing later in her career. Um, it just, uh, she ran such a wide array of responsibilities and, uh, skill sets that I think that it was just amazing what she did. And I'm happy to follow in her footsteps.

[00:07:07] Did you have a different like series of specialties as well? Did you stay in critical care and I guess neuro? Cause that's how I know you. Yeah. Any variety of stations as well? Not as much, not as much. I knew in nursing school through my, uh, clinical rotations that ICU was absolutely the place for me. I didn't land on neuro until I was interviewing. Um, but ICU was definitely for me. I loved critical care.

[00:07:37] I loved the, uh, forgive me, intensity of the work that critical care nurses do. I loved the time that they got at the bedside with patients, with their families, uh, true teamwork and collaboration with our interprofessional colleagues, um, physicians, uh, therapists, respiratory care practitioners, uh, everyone.

[00:08:01] And just how amazing it was when synergistically we would work together and create outcomes for patients. That was something that was like, it set me on fire in the best way. And so I knew that I wanted to be in ICU and I recognize that that was hard for a newly licensed nurse. And I would need to go to a hospital that would provide me that training, uh, to go directly in there. So that number one, that limited my options for where I could go.

[00:08:30] Um, but I was very thankful to, uh, live in Dallas where UT Southwestern medical center was shout out to them. And they had a new nurse residency training program. And so I applied and as we got experience in each one of the ICUs neuro was fascinating to me. There was such a subtlety to the specialty that I didn't see everywhere else. It's, it's heavily, uh, assessment based, which I loved.

[00:08:59] And, um, it's, some people walk onto the units and they say that it's quiet because we're trying to keep the environment to be therapeutic. And I know that the keyword is a bit taboo in medicine. Um, but I, I loved the quiet intensity of it. I loved the fact that nurses were constantly assessing that they were noting any subtle changes that were there.

[00:09:22] Because truly knowing their baseline of their patients so that they could identify any movement one way or the other was just, it was like a, an amazing puzzle to me. And so, um, I'm very thankful that I landed in the neuro ICU. I'm very thankful that I was able to, uh, find a hospital that believed in new grad nurses enough to invest in them for training programs. And, um, again, nursing was one of the best decisions I made.

[00:09:51] And I happened to land on a wonderful nurturing unit at UT Southwestern. Yeah. And you haven't stayed there. What is your role now? Yeah. So I have moved from UT Southwestern and I'm now at UCSF in California, University of California at San Francisco. Um, I worked in the ICU, uh, here at UCSF for quite some time and then transitioned in 2020, like a lot of people did, uh, to a different role.

[00:10:19] Um, and I am a nursing professional development practitioner, which means I get to support bedside nurses in the ICU, uh, not just the neuro ICU, but all the ICUs in their education, training and career path. Uh, so it is something that again is very rewarding. I feel like the impact of my work is a, is a lot broader.

[00:10:41] Um, while I used to directly interact with patients and have an impact in their lives, now I get to support the nurses that do the work, um, directly there at the bedside. Whether it's developing their clinical skills, uh, developing their interprofessional skills, um, supporting them with whatever they need so that they can provide safe quality care to our patients.

[00:11:04] And importantly, that patient education that is there so that patients know how they can promote their own health as best as they can. Yeah. And I know that that is the impetus for your billion dollar idea that we will get to before we end this episode. So stay tuned for that. But I would love to dive into hearing some more about how you mentally came to the point where you're like, I'm going to join a female dominated profession as a man.

[00:11:34] So how did you get over that mental block? Yeah. Um, it's so funny. You said at the beginning of the interview, you just wanted to clarify that I was a nurse because you want people to think I was a doctor. And that happens so many times. You can't tell on camera because I'm seated. And also the internet is fun with this, but I'm six foot two. Um, I'm very tall. And so as soon as somebody sees me in scrubs, they automatically assume that I'm a doctor.

[00:12:00] And then when I clarify and I say, no, no, I'm actually a nurse. You know, they kind of cock their heads and they're like, why? You know, like, uh, especially. Why would you ever want to do that? Why would you ever want to, you know, clean bedpans and everything else? And they immediately start going to those tasks.

[00:12:19] But, um, for me, it was something that the caring, supportive nature of nursing is something that really resonated with me. And, uh, I think that it was best put into words by a physician colleague of mine that physicians are all about curing and nurses are all about caring. And I love that.

[00:12:46] I love that the, the humanity that is in nursing is so prevalent and at the forefront. And it's not something that happens as like a by-product. It's something that really, truly is like a driving force in nursing. And no, a lot of people don't associate that with men, but I, it is very much like who I am.

[00:13:11] You know, my mom told me a story when I told her that I wanted to be a nurse and I decided to make that decision. She told me a story about, uh, when I was a little boy, I was still in diapers, which is pertinent to the story. Um, but I was still in diapers and we had gone into, um, I think it was an otolaryngologist that, uh, my mom was seeing and she had me with her.

[00:13:34] And, uh, there was a gentleman in the waiting room and he had this big bulky bandage underneath his nose and it had like saturated through with blood. And I was probably, I don't know, 18 months, two years old. And I, I looked at him and I looked at my diaper bag and I looked at him and I reached in and I grabbed one of my diapers and I like toddled over to him and like held it up to be like, you clearly need this. Like, like here.

[00:14:05] And I of course don't remember this cause this is before, but when I told my mom that I wanted to be a nurse, she was like, you, this is the worst. This has been you ever since I can remember. And she told me that story and it made sense. It made sense that, um, like when I, I see somebody who is in need, and I think this resonates with a lot of nurses, we immediately want to fix it and make it better for them. And, um, sometimes we can, and that's great when we can, but sometimes we can't.

[00:14:35] And when we can't, then we're still there. We're still providing them that caring, nurturing, you know, I'll say it loving nature that, that nurses bring and we hold their hands and we sit in silence. And even if we don't have the answers, we let them know that they're not alone. And that is not something that I have found in any other profession, including within healthcare. Um, I think that that is something. Maybe chaplains. Maybe chaplains. Yes.

[00:15:05] Thank you. This is, this is why we talk. Yeah. Yes. I'm like, okay, chaplains, I need you to come hold your hand so that I can keep them alive. Can you do that?

[00:15:13] But it's, it's, that is, that is one of the things that chaplain does or chaplains do, uh, just as it's one of the things that nurses do, you know, and sometimes even in one shift, we have gone from full court press doing everything that we can to pivoting in a matter of hours to, I think we've exhausted everything that we can do, but I'm still here with you.

[00:15:37] And that's something that is uniquely nursing is that wide spectrum of both ends, you know, solution focused to let's just be with each other. And, um, that is kind of what I was trying to describe as uniquely nursing. And, um, it's, it's incredible every day. I'm humbled by the amazing work that I see the men and women persons doing around me, um, in healthcare.

[00:16:07] But especially in nursing. And, uh, it is absolutely the biggest reason why I chose it as a profession and, um, it's been incredible. Yeah. And I want to say, while we're talking about being a man in nursing, I prepped you for this. So don't just take it personally, because, uh, Michael is not the man who made me like super thankful for all men in nursing.

[00:16:32] Um, I actually, uh, when I joined a neuro ICU unit as a baby nurse and before that as an aide, um, we had kind of like this wow group of male nurses at night. And they taught me how we keep people alive until day shift. And it was incredible, uh, to learn from them because, you know, in nursing school, I'm learning from an all female staff of people who are teaching me how to follow orders.

[00:17:01] And maybe think critically a little bit, but I learned some really imaginative things from these male nurses. But also I learned how to speak to providers from them assertively, right? At, in school, I learned that as far situation, background assessment, um, your recommendation. But in, um, the ICU from these male nurses, I learned how to deliver that in an assertive yet respectful way as a colleague with the providers, right?

[00:17:31] Um, as a baby nurse, I didn't necessarily know how to make good recommendations right away. But I did have that modeled for me to know that there's this expectation that I'm not here to be subservient to physicians. I'm here to partner with them to take care of these patients and to value my own knowledge. And, um, sometimes the other, I would say there are plenty of assertive female nurses.

[00:17:55] There are, but they weren't always the nurses I wanted to model myself after. However, because, um, as women, I feel like we come across, uh, really disagreeable when we're being assertive. It's not interpreted the same way. And, um, I could be assertive with the male nurses and they wouldn't be offended, right? Whereas if I'm being assertive with other females, they might perceive that as being offensive.

[00:18:25] And so, um, I was thinking about it as I went along, uh, and I would hear the same situation discussed by a male nurse and a female nurse with a physician and just learn the differences like in delivery. Right. And how the male nurses would get, um, listened to and their, uh, opinions would be taken credibly.

[00:18:48] And, um, I learned that that is the expectation because I'm a nurse, just like he's a nurse. And if I know that this is the situation, I have the authority to say so. And I don't have to back down just because I'm a nurse. I don't have to back down because I'm a woman. I get to say my piece and I really needed that empowerment from the male nurses there. And if they hadn't been there, I may not have learned that in, in the same way.

[00:19:17] And so, um, I think a lot of the times I get frustrated when I hear a bunch of male bashing going on, uh, because I think of all of the patients that I've been able to take care of assertively because of the men who taught me how to be an assertive nurse and how to, um, just not see myself in a subservient role, even though that is like a lot of the cultural expectation.

[00:19:41] Um, so I assume you're doing that for the people around you. I'm going, I'm going to just put it out there. I hope. But, um, yeah. And thank you for sharing that.

[00:19:55] And yeah, I'm, I'm very aware that again, as a tall man with male privilege, that, uh, people are going to listen to me differently than they are, uh, someone who's saying the exact same thing, but maybe doesn't have my physical characteristics or, you know, uh, presentation in society. And so I get that.

[00:20:18] And you, you've touched on that too, that part of it is the type of assertive communication that's happening, but also part of it is the perception of, of who that person is kind of in society. And so I think that as men in nursing, we have the unique position to use our male privilege for good and empower other people who maybe do not have that same immediate response, you know, when they talk to people.

[00:20:44] And I, uh, teach a communication course with a female colleague of mine. And that's something that comes up a lot that as I share with them, uh, as I share with students strategies that work for assertive communication. Um, so often they're like, well, yeah, it's easy for you because you're a man, but there, yes, it is. It is easy. Communication is not easier because you're a man. To be fair. I agree. I agree. There is. It doesn't barely come as naturally. No. No.

[00:21:14] And you know, it is, I'm anything from relationships, uh, in my personal life to, uh, talking interprofessionally in high stakes situations, like super high stakes situations. And in the ICU, you want to make sure that your message is not lost in the noise. And so that's what I focus on when I am either teaching about communication or mentoring somebody through a particularly difficult situation. It's just make sure your message is not getting lost in the noise.

[00:21:41] Um, it's like any other skill just takes practice, but I'm so thankful that, um, that you had those people. I, my night shift nurses, I started on night shift as well. My night shift nurses got me through so many things and really helped me develop those critical thinking skills really helped me, um, kind of pull out in that S bar.

[00:22:03] What is the thing that you want the doctor to know, like above everything else to make sure that, you know, like don't go too far into the weeds, but what is the thing that you want them to know so that they see what you're seeing. And that is definitely a skill. And I'm so thankful that you had nurses who nurtured that in you. And then it's great that they were guys too. Yeah, exactly. Well, and I think on a larger, like big picture scale too, that, um, you know, nursing has started as an all female role.

[00:22:33] And so the introduction of men into it, uh, is relatively new, um, in the last few couple of generations. Right. Because they just couldn't get away with wearing that white dress the same way. And the capes, I actually wish we would bring back the capes and the hats sometimes. I feel like those style points, hero thing, right? We get the case. We should have a case even with scrubs.

[00:22:57] Um, but what I want to say from this is I think that having more men in nursing can elevate the profession because men will not tolerate some of the BS that women will tolerate. Totally. That level, like a rising tide floats all ships, you know? Um, it's, I love that. Well, I didn't make that up. I know, but I, this is the first time that I've heard it. And I love that, you know, like if one of us wins, we all win.

[00:23:27] So like, let's raise the tide and float these ships. Yes. I love that. Because if, if you're a nurse, like that's your degree and you become the CEO of something, then a nurse can be a CEO. Oh, well then a female nurse can be a CEO too. Like, and just clarify that this role is not holding us back at all.

[00:23:48] And just eliminating some excuses of why we're not at the table for certain decisions to be made or why we're not sharing our voice with Congress or whatever. Like, let's think big picture here. There's a male nurses association, right? Are you part of that? I'm actually not. Um, but I love that there is some solidarity there. Yeah. And I'm glad it exists.

[00:24:11] And I would consider myself a de facto ally to that because, because of my belief that men elevate the profession of nursing in this context. So, um. And not just for lift help. Right. Oh God. I opened it. I meant to make that joke 10 minutes ago. No, it's fine. No, I talk about that a lot. Like, uh, yeah. Lift help and, uh, combative patients, I feel like are usually relegated to the male staff.

[00:24:39] The six-foot two guy can handle this combative patient, right? Absolutely. I'll catch hands. Yeah. You know what? I really appreciate that intermediation there. Um, and then, because that is a real thing. Like, there's so much workplace violence. And I definitely felt safer anytime I was on a unit with a male nurse who could lend their, uh, physical protective element of if they just walk in the room. That's how they're just going to sit down.

[00:25:08] Yeah, that's a, I feel like we could have a completely separate session talking about those dynamics in the workplace. But absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, let's go on to your billion dollar idea. Oof. Yeah. The need that brought you into nursing, uh, which would be educating these patients, right?

[00:25:29] So the question is, if you were given a grant for $1 billion, how would you like to see it used strategically to meet the needs that you see to have the most sustainable impact? Yeah. Yeah. And I love this question. When you first asked me this question, I was like, that's a great question.

[00:25:50] And, uh, I, I come from a lens that is very inpatient focused, but so much of my work in grad school and so much of, you know, kind of shifting my idea of an understanding of what health is means that we need to start much earlier. And it is truly just an idea.

[00:26:12] It isn't really fleshed out, but I'm hoping that maybe some by sharing it, that somebody out there either has the same idea or has gotten started on it. So if you're listening or watching, like, please take this and run. Do not feel like you have to, you know, leave this alone. But, um, so much of health promotion happens outside the hospital.

[00:26:33] And I am confident there are public health nurses out there who have their hand on the pulse of their population that they're serving and they know what they are up against. So my billion dollar idea would be to address social determinants of health that are getting in the way of each population. And it's going to be different for that population, but each population, what is, what is between them and health?

[00:26:59] What is there that is a barrier that we could remove? And I'm confident that public health nurses are painfully aware of these barriers, of these social determinants of health that are either promoting health or deterring from it. And giving them the resources that they so desperately need, because I can also say with confidence that most public health nurses are drastically underfunded in their resources.

[00:27:29] But giving them the resources that they need to educate patients, to, um, connect them with the food resources that they need, language resources that they need, education resources that they need, you know, whatever it is that is there. How can we, one by one, or collectively all at once, take away those barriers?

[00:27:53] And I think that that is where the juice is, so to speak, in this conversation. Um, because I, folks are not walking around saying like, I enjoy doing things. Well, maybe they do. Um, but it is my, it is my goal. Right. Living in a, right. It is my goal to not be healthy. Yeah. I know people are not saying their goal is to not be healthy.

[00:28:20] It is that they're choosing between taking their medications or paying their rent, or they are figuring out, um, you know, what foods are accessible to them and what foods are affordable to them. Um, or they aren't understanding, like, of course this, my doctor wants me to do this. My nurse wants me to do this, but like, you know, I, I really don't see the value in it.

[00:28:45] And, um, I think that if we gave them resources, if we gave them time, which is an amazing resource to have, uh, that we would be able to address a lot of those social determinants of health that are causing, uh, recurring admissions that are, uh, leading to, you know, people making decisions that in the, in the moment are, they think are the best decisions for them. Um, you know, paying the rent.

[00:29:12] So they have a place to stay, but that means that they can't, you know, buy their prescriptions that month or, um, somebody in their family is sick and they choose to prioritize their health over their own because they think that it's an either or situation rather than an yes. And situation. And, and I think that public health nurses are the closest to that, uh, and are really well equipped, equipped to help address those. So my billion dollar idea in a nutshell would be to give our funding to public health nurses so that they can help address social determinants of health.

[00:29:42] Ultimately creating healthy populations so that our hospitals are not overrun so that people are living their most fulfilled, highest quality of life that they can be. And that they have the information that they need to take care of themselves. Um, because so often it's, it's left to healthcare to take care of people, which we're happy to do. But if people can take care of themselves at the beginning, if they have the things that they need to do that, then we all win. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:30:11] That is so true. And, and I think it needs to be nurses to lead it because we're uniquely trained and we uniquely care in a way that goes above and beyond. And, um, when we were discussing this idea beforehand, um, I told you about Beth Brooks who started, um, nurse capital, which is a venture capital firm that, uh, supports nurse owned businesses based on nursing ideas.

[00:30:39] And it meets this need because a lot of venture capital firms. So, um, those nurses don't understand the nursing perspective and how the need for this in the market and all that. Um, and so it's meeting that need. But I wonder if someone could create maybe like a shark tank situation for this public health nurse ideas to address social determinants of health.

[00:31:05] Because, you know, like you said, every population is different and one blanket solution for every demographic in the country is not going to be one size fits all. So Congress even, while a huge scale may not actually be the targeted effective way to do it. So I wonder if somebody could start like a social determinants of health shark tank. If you do that, I hope you find a better way to do that.

[00:31:32] I mean, that can be it or, you know, whatever else it is. But just, you know, like a competition for health or whatever else that they want, because I know that they have ideas out there. They're just lacking the funding for it. And so rather than... I know my opinion cares about this too. So if he wants it to be his own spinoff, more power to him. I mean, he's already making prescription drugs so much more affordable for people. So maybe some of you go pitch it to him, please. Here's your recording. Yeah.

[00:32:02] Was there something else you were going to say? No, that's just it. I just, I think that all of us are smarter than one of us. And I think that the more that we connect with each other, the more that we thought partners share ideas, get our hands in it together, get messy around a lot of these topics. I think that the more we're going to win as a whole.

[00:32:25] And it's less about necessarily individual successes and more about how can we use all of our collective influence and brain power as nurses to really make a shift in the state of health. Because what our current state is not working. And I think that as the largest component of professionals in healthcare, nurses make up the largest percentage of professionals in healthcare.

[00:32:53] We are uniquely positioned to really change the tides and shift where healthcare is going. And so just like you found empowerment from your colleagues, I want nurses to see that we are powerful, especially when we are together. And how can we help lift each other up? How can we link arms with each other and really make big changes through small everyday actions? I agree.

[00:33:20] And, you know, this might be a great time for us to make a plug for joining nursing organizations that help us to network with other people who see the needs we see. Like you're seeing the same needs I'm seeing. I'm in Kentucky. You're currently in California. You saw I'm in Texas as well. And we don't have to be from the same place to see the same needs. And we can brainstorm about it across the country now, thanks to the internet.

[00:33:48] And I think that organizations like if it's in your specialty, whether it's the American Association for Neuroscience Nurses, where you get to have Nurse Michael as your director at large. Or the American Nurses Association, which lobbies for all of our rights and protections to the National Congress. And your state associations like I've gotten more involved with the Kentucky Nurses Association. And here's the thing.

[00:34:17] If you don't think that that organization in your state or whatever is doing what you think would be most effective, joining it and putting your voice out there from the inside is how you let them know what needs you're seeing. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's totally easy to be in the stands and have an opinion about what's happening on the field. But you could also get on the field and change the tide of the game. So like be the change you want to see in the world.

[00:34:47] If it's not headed in the direction that you think it needs to be headed, speak up, get active, get involved. And, you know, you're not always going to agree with people in the organization, but you can still have a common goal. And it's great when you encounter people with different ideas, different opinions, because you sharpen each other that way. You vet out the things that are not going to necessarily work.

[00:35:10] And as uncomfortable as it is, it is how we generate really great things is when you have different ideas, different perspectives, different experiences that people bring. That's why diversity is so important so that you can collectively come up with something that is bigger and stronger than any one individual person could think of. Exactly. Well, thank you for putting your head together with me today, Michael. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. This was delightful. Yeah, it was.

[00:35:38] And I hope I'll see you in the upcoming months for future neuro-related conferences or something. I am looking forward to it. We have our next annual meeting in New Orleans in March. So come party with us. Well, and I will probably be speaking at the International Stroke Conference in February in Los Angeles. Yes. So, you know, if you need to drive up to LA from San Francisco, you know, that's you. But you'll have one really good talk to listen to for 10 whole minutes. Always.

[00:36:08] Always. Always. But, um, all right. Well, thank you for listening, everybody, to the Nurse Roses Insights podcast. Please let me know where you're listening from. I would love to hear, uh, see in the comments what you found helpful or what ideas you'd like to hear discussed in the future. If you're a millionaire or if you know somebody who has a really great billion-dollar idea and you're like, they need to be heard and get it out there, then, you know, connect us here. I will put my LinkedIn in the show notes.

[00:36:37] And, Michael, if anybody wanted to reach out to you, would you like that to be via LinkedIn? Yeah, LinkedIn is great. Okay. I'll put that in the show notes as well. And like and subscribe wherever you're listening. And I'll see you in the next episode. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.